Podcast

In this special bonus episode of The Forum Podcast, Maureen Berkner Boyt (The Moxie Exchange) answers questions from listeners that attended our webinar Seizing the Moment to Create a New, More Inclusive Normal.

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Maureen answers questions from our listening audience around these talking points:

  • The “perfect storm” and advice to companies who did not have DEI as a priority prior to it (the “perfect storm”).
  • Examples of ways to remove bias in a performance assessment process.
  • Addressing concerns that diversity training is unnecessary.
  • Talking about inclusion measures with executives so they also have something to report up to folks who only care about metrics.
  • Approaches for new DEI committees to demonstrate why it’s imperative for senior leadership to undergo comprehensive and contextual D&I training.
  • Bringing POC voices in.
  • How to strategize and bring about behavioral change.
  • Day-to-day practices to model enthusiasm and buy in that we want to see in our team.

For additional context and insight into this topic and conversation, watch the replay of Seizing the Moment to Create a New, More Inclusive Normal.

Transcript

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Announcer: [00:00:00] It’s happening. The forums 33rd annual conference workplace revolution is March 8th through 12th, 2021, A forum conference like never before. The 33rd annual conference will be completely virtual with the same high quality forum programming you’ve come to know, love, and expect. This year’s annual conference is our most affordable, most accessible and at five days long, our biggest conference ever. Register early and take advantage of reduced pricing. Join us from anywhere on March 8th, through 12th, 2021 for the Forum on Workplace Inclusion, 33rd Annual Conference Workplace Revolution.

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[music]

Ben: Hello and thank you for joining us for today’s podcast. Seizing the moment to create a new, more inclusive, normal continued with Maureen Berkner Boyt of the Moxie Exchange. I’m Ben Rue program associate here at the Forum on Workplace Inclusion. This is a continuation of our January webinar [00:02:00] seizing the moment to create a new, more inclusive normal, which featured a conversation between Maureen, Stephanie Douglas of [unintelligible 00:02:07] and Becca Gelenberg of Upstart. Today Maureen has graciously agreed to return to answer some of the many wonderful questions we were not able to get to during the webinar.

Maureen Mo Berkner Boyt is the founder of the Moxie exchange. She spent over 25 years helping organizations grow by creating inclusive workplaces where talented people can thrive. People around the world are using tools, microlearning courses and the mobile app she created to thrive in their careers and lives. Maureen holds a master’s in education, organizational development, and is the author of the five book series Rock Your Moxy: Power Moves For Women Leading The Way. Her disrupt HR talk, Hack Your Biased Brain is one of the most popular talks of the movement.

Mo has lived her life as a doer and a risk taker too. She’s ridden camels in the Sahara desert, jumped in the ferry pools of the aisle of sky and completed two 36 hour ultra-team runs. She brings those experiences and approach to her work, getting people to think big, take action and move the dial on driving results for themselves and for their teams. Maureen, thank you so much for being here and agreeing to come and continue this conversation. We had a lot of great questions during the webinar that we weren’t able get to so I’m excited to get to some of them today, but before we go ahead and hop into the questions, could you just give our listeners who weren’t able to listen to, or attend the podcast or webinar a brief recap of the webinar?

Maureen: Yes. Thanks for having me. What a great community you all have built. It’s a real pleasure. I actually brought into conversation two leaders that we’ve worked with. Steff Douglas who’s [00:04:00] the Chief People Officer at [unintelligible 00:04:02] and Becca Gelenberg who’s the same role at Upstart, and really talked about how to seize this moment to create a new, more inclusive normal. That was really saying we had the perfect storm this last year of events that really laid inequity bare. In moments like that it’s great.

We don’t want to go back to normal because normal wasn’t working for most people. We really talked about, ”what does work from home look like?” What have been the plus and the minus, and even talking about how class came into that and not everybody had the ability to work from home. What you could do to leverage this energy right of employees saying, what can I do? What can I do? and how to roll that into real action and same with executives. How to keep executives focused on a long term strategy and not just doing some performative work, and then a whole bunch of different ways to deliver programming resources, tools. What are some things around inclusion, nudges, and tech and in person and town halls and all of the things that both those organizations did.

Ben: Thank you so much for that recap. It was a great webinar and a great conversation. If you haven’t seen it yet, I would recommend going back and watching that, maybe going back and watching that, and then coming back and listening to this. It might help, a little bit of context, but we’re happy to have you here. Especially I want to thank Stephanie and Becca for their contribution to the webinar and like I said, that great work to that great conversation. [unintelligible 00:05:50] further ado, let’s jump into the questions for today. There’s a lot of people who [00:06:00] are upset that it took the perfect storm, it took George for his murder to stir change, can you give advice to companies who were not on this journey prior to the perfect storm?

Maureen: Yes. Ben it’s interesting to me. I would say I don’t care what gets people to the table as long as they get to the table. I’ve heard people get really angry when somebody will come out and say, ”Well, I have a daughter now so now I get it,” and they get frustrated with that. I’m like, I don’t care. I don’t care. Whatever takes the blinders off and has people see the need for change and be committed to change. Let’s focus on that. Let’s focus on the forward progress and then saying, what can you do now so that you don’t unsee this. So that you’re not take sort of knee-jerk reaction from the perfect storm, but that you really see that this is forever work.

We talk about DEI work being a lot like leading a healthy lifestyle. It’s a set of choices that you make day in and day out. You don’t get to wake up one day and say, oh, you know what, I’ve done my sit-ups, I’ve done my push-ups, I’ve gotten enough sleep, all these things now I can just sit on the couch and eat Fritos because I’ve hit my ideal all those things it’s every single day. It’s okay now you’re on the journey. Now you have to stay on the journey. What got you here? I don’t care.

Ben: [unintelligible 00:07:46] sit-ups and push-ups a little more. [laughs] That’s far more driven than I am at the moment. In the webinar you all mentioned unconscious bias [00:08:00] and needing to interrupt it in talent management processes. What are some examples of ways to remove bias in a performative assessment process?

Maureen: Yes, I think it’s really important. We ground everything we do in reminding people about unconscious bias. There’s the research that says knowing isn’t enough and actually if we think we know, then we actually behave in more biased ways. We have to hack our biased brain in every single system and process and particularly when we’re talking about diversity and equity.

Those happen at the systems level and at the leadership level. When we’re talking about performance assessment, it’s making sure in black and white, you can answer the question, ”What are the skills and experiences needed to be successful in this role? What are the skills and experiences needed to move on to the next role?” Many organizations, if you leave it up to, “I think they’re doing a good job or she’s a little abrasive,” those things allow that unconscious bias to a creep in.

You have to be very, very clear about expectations and have every single person measured against that same set of criteria. That will certainly take time. We say some of these things are simple, but not easy. It’s simple to get this done. It’s not necessarily easy to get it done. That’s where you really have to think back and say, it’s worth it because we know the benefit of diverse and inclusive teams.

Ben: Actually, the next couple questions were along that line of showing that it’s worth it. It’s more about how do you get your buy-in from your leadership? Like what [00:10:00] approach good new DE&I committees take to demonstrate that it is imperative for senior leadership to undergo comprehensive and contextual DE&I training. How do you make it seem like it’s worth it to them?

Maureen: There are a couple of things. You have to appeal to both data and emotion. There’s the, say, think like a CEO. Thinking like a CEO at the end of the day, she’s always saying, “How is this business or organization going to be successful in the future?” That is making sure that you can absolutely articulate. The business case should be obvious, but really being able to articulate that and not just, “Oh, we’re going to make more money, but wow, do you like all these things about patents and team IQ, what it does for reducing turnover, how you get more discretionary effort from teams.”

We tell the story often about, and I love pulling up the photo of the team that took a picture of the black hole. Now, I’m not really into astronomy. It’s not my jam but when I heard that they took a picture of the black hole, I’m like, “That’s incredible. Who did this?” It was this cross-cultural, I think it was something like 23 different countries. When you take a look at that photo, you see the visible diversity, age, race, gender identity. What you don’t see are some of the other invisible, like one of the lead scientists is out in science, he’s a gay man.

There are [00:12:00] a couple of people on that team who are people with disabilities. It doesn’t bring in some of the cultural things that you can see or class or some of the neurodivergent folks on the team. When you dig in even further on that, you hear how collaborative they were, how inclusive they were, and they were able to take a picture of the black hole. It’s being able to anchor back and think like a CEO, but tell it in story form.

When we do this, oh my gosh, we’re going to be able to do X, Y, and Z in our industry. These projects that we’ve been trying to get across the finish line, all of these things, we can do better and faster with a diverse and inclusive team and with a culture of belonging. You have to keep going back to that well because we can forget and so going back. Keep anchoring everything that you’re doing in what matters to senior leadership. If you’re telling them that they’re going to save money, that the teams are going to be smarter, but we think in pictures and in stories.

Even using that example or then tying that very tangibly to what are some things on your strategic roadmap and what would it look like if we had the strongest, brightest, most engaged team working on that. That’s why this matters. Sometimes we want those shiny blinky measures. I actually see a slow-moving train wreck happening about 18 months from now where all of these companies came out and they said, “We’re going to increase our number of black employees, and we’re going to go, [00:14:00] and we’re going to hire from HBCUs.”

First, I think, fantastic, super excited for the folks that are graduating from those institutions, phenomenal. They should have been recruited hard like this all along, but if you are not also looking at inclusion and inclusion measures, you are putting those people into toxic work environments. When they’re asking you about metrics, you have to be able to talk about both. That, again, the diversity and equity measures, like what are our numbers?

That’s the one that people wanted to go to, but what’s our sense of inclusion and belonging, particularly when we dig in and dive into the demographics because your overall numbers might be great, but maybe your LGBTQ+ employees feel horrible, or your people of color, or pick your underrepresented group. You need to measure both, and measuring trends and progress. There could be a lot of really bad behavior. If you set a goal, like we’re going to increase our number of X by X, that’s not necessarily a healthy goal.

Ben: No.

Maureen: You need to be looking at the measurements holistically and tying it back to how the organization wins as a result.

Ben: It’s such a great point. The equity and culture competence is so important. My beloved Minneapolis, my beloved Minnesota has a not great record when it comes to– There’s lots of disparities, but even when there are people of color hired in these executive roles, they tend not [00:16:00] to stay long. They’re usually gone within like six months or a year because like you said, they are put in these toxic work environments because the company didn’t do the work to make sure that they’re equitable and that they feel welcome and as part of the company. I’m sorry.

Maureen: That’s where there’s the danger in just hiring the shiny blinky, and only measuring– I didn’t mean hiring, I meant measuring. Only measuring those things, because again, people get hired and they’re set up to fail. It’s also thinking about, when we approach this, you do have to take a holistic approach. You have to look at diversity and equity, unconscious bias, your systems, your process, every single step of the talent cycle, but you also need to be spending the time.

This is where I see a huge gap on that inclusion and belonging. Ben, inclusion and belonging happens with how you and I treat each other day in and day out. We often will do training and resource tools for managers and individual contributors are wandering around in the dark. We call them NBC, nice but clueless. They’re not showing up saying, “I’m going to throw it on six microaggressions on my coworkers today.”

Ben: Hopefully, no one comes in like that.

Maureen: Right. They don’t know, but what matters is impact. We have to equip individuals with the resources, the tools, the knowledge to be inclusive, and they have to understand their role. I would say on the measurement side of things, it’s also really important for individuals [00:18:00] to understand how they win when it’s a diverse team and an inclusive culture because Ben, we want this to be like people want to do this because it’s the right thing but behavior change is hard. If you’re asking me to change my behavior, and I wish it wasn’t true, but it simply is, I got to know what’s in it for me.

Ben: Exactly. You have to incentivize it.

Maureen: Yes, and it’s telling them that story. Imagine your co-workers are engaged that they’re staying longer and you’re not having to train the new person and you’re all doing cool work. You’re not carrying too much of the load, you’re carrying your share of the load and so is everybody else, and you’re doing these amazing things together. We always say, think about this from your individual career standpoint, people that get along, get ahead. If you can create that inclusion and belonging, you will see yourself moving forward in your career.

Ben: Such a great point. More often than not people just jump to the ROI, but there’s so many more benefits to having diverse, inclusive, equitable team just makes everything so much better. Well, speaking of teams, this is a little bit of a touchy subject that was brought up about the presenters in this webinar to the untrained– All three of you are cisgender, white women.

Maureen: Yes, three white women.

Ben: Three white women. [laughs] That didn’t slip. A few people noticed but [00:20:00] I really appreciated that during the webinar. You did actually address it head-on instead of trying to skirt around it and as blunt as you were just now, you said we are three white women here talking about inclusion. It’s one of those things I had just had one of those privileged moments where it’s like, it feels weird for me to be like, you’re three white women. Why aren’t you out there? When you can say it as–

Maureen: Yes. Absolutely. I think that’s the head-on approach I think is always a great one, and to understand the limitations of that and to never, ever presume. You have no idea what my experiences is a white woman?

Ben: Yes.

Maureen: I have no idea what your experiences as a black man, and I’m not going to pretend to, and I’m not going to speak for you. It’s always, how do you– My daughter’s a person with a disability and with a very visible disability. She’s a little person. I could never presume as her mother, the person that in my case, I happened to give birth to her. I’m not going to pretend to know what it’s like to walk in her shoes. I can’t, but what I can do is bring her voice in when and where it matters. When you look at your organization, we always say, curiosity is an inclusion superpower.

To continue to ask whose voice is not in the room, whose perspective do we not have, and how do we get that in the room? The work that I did with Upstart, we talked about this Trudy Bourgeois is a friend and colleague. She and I did a town hall together because I’m not going to come and speak for black women. Are you kidding me? [00:22:00] [crosstalk] but Trudy can. I think that’s the thing. I think it’s– So there’s so many things here. There’s the awareness, there’s the curiosity, but then there also has to be the psychological safety so that if you do see somebody let’s say that we had shown up as three white women.

As we were talking about the work that we’d done, it was really clear that we had never brought in other perspectives. Somebody should have called us on that, but done it in a way that was about learning and growth. Blame and shame gets us nowhere, but curiosity and growth and gosh did you recognize, do you realize what are some ways in the future that you could, what do you think the impact is when you are at, and powerful questions that we can learn and grow and come out smarter on the other side, I think are really, really important.

Ben: Yes. The comment did [00:23:05] start by thanking you for recognizing that and asking, how did you bring in POC voices in and also mostly when you use an app-based training for those who don’t know the Moxy exchanges is an app based training, do you want to talk about the app too?

Maureen: Yes. One of the things that we do, one of the parts that I love about the app the most is we have inclusion interviews. There’s an interview and the intersectionality of them is just so cool then, whether it is a black male, double amputee, who’s talking about both race and people with disabilities. We have a transgender black woman who’s talking about when she’s talking about allyship, she’s not [00:24:00] talking about allyship as it relates to her being transgender, she’s talking about allyship as it relates to her being black. A gentleman who has- he calls himself profoundly dyslexic and talking about that experience.

It’s this really wide range, and we’re asking these questions, what do you wish people knew? What language is appropriate? How can people be a good ally? What do you wish people would stop doing? We always say in the app, no one person speaks for an entire group of people, so don’t take this as gospel. This is not, or no one, there’s a language and dictionary guide. There’s a calendar. It’s really the breadth and depth, everything from, how do we run an inclusive meeting to, I’ve got somebody on my team who’s Hindu and I have to order a meal. I want to make sure I order something they could eat. I can go to the app and figure that out.

It’s trying to take this, not trying, really bringing those voices right into the app and saying, all right, this is all right, NBC person, nice but clueless, because we all are. We all are right because diversity is a viewpoint and a perspective. Like you said, just this whole idea of don’t presume to know what it’s like to be XYZ or to have these different dimensions, beautiful dimensions of diversity. Use this as base knowledge and then go and ask and engage. It’s a jumping-off point of information.

Ben: That sounds like a great answer, and also sounds like a great app.

Maureen: I’m pretty proud of it.

Ben: Yes. It has a lot of great resources [00:26:00] on the app. You mentioned during the webinar where people can find the app and get access to it for two free weeks.

Maureen: Yes. We would love for people to get in there and play with it if they feel like it. It is if people go to the Moxie exchange, there’s an E at the end of Maxie and at the start of exchange. themoxieexchange.com/event-attendee-trial and you can download the app and have fun with it. Our goal at Moxie is unleashing the power and potential of people from underrepresented groups and really creating this positive tsunami in the world because they’re big.

Ben, you, and I talked about this a couple of different times. We have so many big problems that need to be solved. Racial, injustice, inequity, access to clean water, climate change.

All of these things are not going to be solved with teams that all look the same. We need to unleash the power of every single person so that together we can solve these big issues. That starts with all of these little daily behavior changes and me understanding my role in building an inclusive world. Download the app, have fun, play with it, and hopefully you learn something.

We’re always open to feedback. I tell our team, and clients, and everybody doing this work, we all are on the journey. You’re never done. You’re never there. There’s always something new to learn. Mistakes will 100% be made. I often will call out my own mistakes to really create that culture that says, yes, yes, no, we’re going to make mistakes. It’s what we do after we make that mistake that’s critical.

Ben: [00:28:00] Yes. I mean, too many times you have people who are too afraid to make mistakes, so they don’t try at all. They won’t even engage with their co-worker.

Maureen: That’s so othering. There’s a transgender woman on the Moxie team, and she’s shared experiences of people avoiding her not because they– it was more because they were worried about saying, or doing the wrong thing. My daughter, 100%, she’s like the awkward conversation or the awkward seeing the walking away stuff because people freak out and instead it’s like, wow, engage with curiosity without putting the burden on the person from the underrepresented group, because sometimes she’s like, “Sometimes I’m just tired. I don’t want to have the conversation, I don’t want to educate you.” That was a part of the reason that we brought the app to life is to put the burden on each of us that we’re each, every single day responsible for building this more inclusive world. I get pretty passionate about this, Ben.

Ben: Oh, I can tell. As a person of color, I also appreciate having that resource available to people because yes, honestly, you do get tired of having to explain of things and having to constantly educate people. It’s not like you don’t want to do it. It’s just exhausting to constantly have to do it. Things that people would know by 2021, but still, and again there’s no malice in them. It’s just, they don’t understand.

Maureen: I think one of the things that we forget [00:30:00] as practitioners is how much we know. We have the curse of knowledge, and I’m reminded of that so often. I was in conversation with a guy who’s probably mid-twenties, and he genuinely asked me what’s the glass ceiling.

Ben: Wow.

Maureen: For me, I was like in my head, I was like what? How do you not and then I thought, why would he know? Let’s engage in conversation. Even just the language, like a microaggression or intersectionality or BIPOC, or any of these things that we just take for granted? They don’t know. We don’t teach this in school.

Ben: I mean, you probably heard the phrase glass ceiling a million times and never understood what it was.

Maureen: What it was. Yes. I think that’s the– and you say it doesn’t, again we talk about– There’s been always so much focus on intent and we really need to switch the focus to impact, that it doesn’t matter if intent is good. It doesn’t matter if I’m asking because I genuinely want to know, it’s how am I walking through this world and what is my impact on other people? Is my impact inclusion or is it othering? Is it exhausting people or is it energizing people? That’s my responsibility is an individual day in and day out. I own that.

Ben: I didn’t mean to step on your toe, but it didn’t change the fact that I did and it hurt your toe.

Maureen: Exactly. Sometimes it’s more like two by four upside the head.

Ben: Yes, exactly.

Maureen: Versus a step on the toe.

Ben: Yes, exactly. Well, this has been such a great conversation, but I hate to do this. Getting into our last two questions [00:32:00] because we are. Like I said, this conversation’s so great, but we want to keep an eye on the time. What is your advice on how to strategize and bring about behavioral change?

Maureen: Behavior change is hard. I talked about it a little earlier in our conversation about make sure people, they get that “why” and what’s in it for them. Then just like anything else, you have to chunk it down to little, teeny, tiny bites. I’ll use the app as an example, you just have these little inclusion nudges. There’s nothing in the app that’s going to take you more than three- I think three and a half minutes is the very longest even interview segment. Some of it’s like I can read the checklist on where to hold an inclusive meeting in 30 seconds.

Our brain takes up most of the oxygen in our body. We actually do a lot– I’m going to get into a little bit of neuroscience here. We do a lot to protect our brain. When we’re trying to have people go through really long training or take on these complex pieces of a puzzle it won’t work. Instead, it’s little, tiny things consistently, little bite-size, nudges, tools, tips, reminders, check-ins, I love a team just having a quick DE&I check in once a month. What do we need to start doing? Stop doing, stay the course on, calling out good behavior when you see it, but there’s a consistency about it that goes back to that healthy lifestyle. Little choices made all day long that’s how you create behavior change and culture change.

Ben: Yes, definitely. I really love the idea of the monthly DE&I check-ins. [00:34:00] That’s definitely could be very helpful for a lot of larger groups of- companies are of all sizes, but definitely could bring in great behavioral and cultural changes. I think it would be a way to, I guess, ask questions without feeling like, I don’t know.

Maureen: Well, sometimes you’ll get that blank stare and it can be– If you did have an idea of what we should stop doing, what would it be. Well, that tends to get people’s chatting and I think that’s part of modelling the leadership too.

Ben: That would also give the marginalized person in the group an opportunity to share without feeling fear of persecution or anything.

Maureen: We actually say it should be on a meeting agenda at least once a month, that you’re doing your DE&I check-in.

Ben: Yes, that’s a great piece of advice. Thank you so much for that. Lastly, what can leadership do day to day to model the enthusiasm and buy-in that we want to see in our team?

Maureen: Yes, this is the–

Ben: Monthly DE&I check-ins form.

Maureen: That’s one, and it is the modelling is everything from bringing it up asking the questions, bringing up some of the hey, we’re in this– doing what I call primers and reminders, “Hey, we’re about to go into this situation. Let’s take a look, we might be– let’s all check our maternal bias. Or let’s make sure that we’re asking this candidate the same set of questions that we asked the last candidate.” I’m a big fan of sharing the small wins. [00:36:00] In the modelling the day-to-day, it can also be what was an inclusion win from this last week.

If you’re doing a team meeting, either sharing progress, highlighting good work amplifying, an advocating the work that’s being done, that is moving the team forward on inclusion and belonging. I would say owning your mistakes. We’re going to make mistakes and being really public about that, like, wow, here is something that I learned because I think that psychological safety is so critical to all of this, that being vulnerability is pretty big here. Owning it, learning, moving forward, making the next mistake moving forward. Then it creates this culture of everybody’s in it together, getting better and stronger together.

Ben: I think that’s such a great point. Also not only owning your mistakes but making them as a– presenting them as a learning opportunity other than a failure, rather than some “You failed at something” it’s an opportunity to learn, like this is what I learned from that mistake.

Maureen: Yes, we always reference Carol Dweck’s work around a growth mindset that mistakes are opportunities and that when you come up against something hard, a difficult situation, you are going to lean into that because the worst thing that you can do is leave somebody feeling othered because you’re afraid of doing or saying the wrong thing. That’s about protecting yourself versus doing what’s right for that other person and that goes back to that impact versus intent. Really again, focusing on the impact on the other person and taking a deep breath and doing the next right [00:38:00] thing, even if that means a little mistake along the way because it’s about daily progress of inclusion.

Ben: Yes. It’s like, if you’re not feeling uncomfortable then you’re probably not doing something right.

Maureen: Oh,100%. If everybody’s cheerfully smiling. Inclusion is messy and hard and wonderful. I think that’s the– if it’s worth, doing sometimes it’s going to be really difficult. I use the example of a coral reef. The side that thrives is the one that actually is being- that the waves are hitting against versus if the water gets stagnant, the reef dies.

Ben: That’s a great example. I think I might have stolen my line about it being uncomfortable from the webinars.

[laughter]

Maureen: I talked about it all the time, Ben, you might have– I happily take it, run with it.

Ben: Well, to give you credit for that, I was like, I heard a wise person say, you’re not uncomfortable.

Maureen: That is great, I love it. I think all of us, I always say in this work, there’s so much work to be done. The more we can all link, arms and share and help each other and learn from each other, the better this world becomes because there’s so much work to be done, but lots of progress, lots of progress.

Ben: I think that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Maureen, for coming back and for having this wonderful conversation with me, and with our listeners. Thank you again. Also, to our listeners, Maureen will be presenting in our upcoming conference [00:40:00]. in March, the theme being Workplace Revolution. Visit our website to get more information on that as well.

Maureen: It was such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Ben: Of course. Such a blast for me, thank you. Thank you so much, Maureen for coming back for that wonderful conversation. Thank you to you, our listeners for joining. If you would like to learn more, feel free to reach out to Maureen directly at maureen@moxiexchange.com or visit www.moxieexchange.com. You can listen to more episodes of the Forum Podcast at forumworkplaceinclusion.org/podcast, or you can listen on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Anchor, and Stitcher. Thank you again for listening. Have a great day.

Announcer: Thank you again for listening to the Forum on Workplace Inclusion Podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast to get updates and the latest episodes. Also, tell us what you think by reviewing our podcast. We’d love to hear your feedback. For more information, visit us at forumworkplaceinclusion.org or search Workplace Forum on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Thank you very much and have a great day.

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Announcer: The Forum on Workplace Inclusion Podcast is recorded at Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota. One of the most diverse private colleges in the mid-west, Augsburg University offers more than 50 undergraduate majors and nine graduate degrees to 3,400 students of diverse backgrounds at its campus in the vibrant center of the twin cities and nearby Rochester, Minnesota location. Augsburg educates students to be informed citizens, thoughtful stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. In Augsburg education is defined by excellence in the global arts and professional studies, guided by the faith and values of the Lutheran Church and shaped by its urban and global settings. Learn more at augsburg.edu.

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